Master’s Degree in Military History

So the logical question is whether there are history courses that would benefit you. And whether Ohio State allows non-matriculated students in their classes.

Would a graduate-level historiography course be of value? Perhaps. Or are there seminar classes that spark your interest?

At the Joint Mathematics Meeting in New Orleans last week I met a young (and attractive!) math professor from Norwich. The faculty are all enrolled in the Vermont National Guard, I think.

JFE

Eric

Other than giving you yet another diploma to hang on the wall, would such a program give you anything you do not have now? The amount and quality of output I have read from you leads me to think that it would just be an excersize in credentialing. A graduate degree should take you into unknown territory and expose you to a breath of knowledge that requires a great deal of research and analysis. I think your there already.

I think you made the right decision, Eric. I too bristle at the “amateur historian” tag – whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean – but I’m not going to pursue a history degree for the sake of others’ labels. You and I, in our chosen history field, invest a lot more time than anyone who would purport to be a “professional” historian in that field.

It doesn’t surprise me that much of the course study you saw was theoretical. You know, you and I study and write about practical history. Boots on the ground sort of stuff. I’m just guessing that perhaps the study of theoretical history might change your or my focus.

As Lanny stated, any or all of your books, and mine, may be (or are) used by those in higher learning. That says enough I think.

My BS degree is from Penn State, and I have two post-graduate degrees in the field of finance. If anything, studying for those taught me how to organize, sift through evidence, and think for myself. If I thought a history degree would advance the way I do it, then I’d go for it. But it would have to be for me – not for how others think of me.

J.D.

I started the MA History program through AMU concentrating on American (specifically Civil War). I dropped it 15 weeks into the 16 week course on Historiography. I just didn’t like the concept and the manner in which the program was implemented. I have a Masters in Space Studies which was partly done through the internet which was a superior program to the AMU program….the MS program had taped class sessions sent to all the students, teacher-led weekly chats, examinations, and book reading.

Having people read 2000 pages for a 16 week course and have them answer an obscure question every two weeks was not a good use of my time and money. Nearly zero student and instructor interaction. Perhaps it was just my experience and the other courses were different, but I was less than enthused by the time it was “nearly” over.

Interesting. I have, over the years, wrestled with the same thought. In the end, I decided that going back to school for an MS or PhD in history would be 1) a vanity and 2) take up way too much time.

So I think you made the right decision, as well. There certainly can be value in an advanced milhist degree, but the better question is how do you think it will improve your work? You know it will slow things down a great deal while you are getting one. What advantage offsets that?

BTW, since you are in Columbus with one of the few MilHist departments around at Ohio State, did you ever look into something there? One consideration is that you are doing what amounts to Thesis work anyway, why not see if there is a way to tailor a program to integrate with your current area of study?

Dave Powell

Scott,

My experience has shown me that to some (usually the academics – they’re the ones who seem to define it anyway, and the only ones to make the distinction) that “professional” means you have a PhD, and “amateur” means you do not. It’s that simple. Nothing else to it – not money, not any other credentials.

Eric has over a dozen books published, yet he will always be an “amateur.” Now, if he had a PhD, he would immediately be called a “professional.” Without the doctorate, he could have 200 books published yet he’ll always be an “amateur.” Like it’s just a hobby.

Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense? Join the club. But the distinction seems to be important to some – in many reviews of analyses of Eric’s, my, and many others’ works by academics, it’s time and time again pointed out that we’re amateurs.

OK. Well, the Stuart’s ride book by Eric and me was one of the best selling CW-related books of 2006, and it only came out in mid-September. Only four months after it’s release, it’s going into a third hardcover printing right now. However, academics will give their awards to more obscure books by fellow academics that only sold a couple thousand copies, I’m sure. That way, the award looks good on their particular university’s resume. Or so I assume.

J.D.

Re my colleague Allan Millett: He retired a year ago, so strictly speaking, his opinion no longer matters. It does however reflect a common, and not wholly unreasonable, attitude within my department. We are basically in the business of training professors in the same way that law schools are in the business of training lawyers.

That said, the department is not devoid of flexibility, and we do admit a few applicants who are not necessarily on an academic track — most obviously active duty officers who have been assigned to teach at the service academies for two years, then return to command and staff duties.

With regard to applicants on an academic track, we admit only those students we can fund, on the theory that to do anything else would be unfair: They would miss out the teaching experience that TA’s get, and if their undergraduate records aren’t strong enough to get funding, it is unlikely that they will compile a strong enough graduate profile to land an academic position.

For someone in Eric’s position, I would think some arrangement could be made for him to take courses on a part-time basis, possibly through the College of Continuing Education. Whether our curriculum would appeal to Eric is another matter. I certainly know a lot of operational history but I teach — and expect my students to learn — a lot of what is being labeled here (rather inaccurately) as theoretical history. Which basically translates as “history that doesn’t happen to interest me.”

I’ve just found your blog (courtesy of Blog Them Out of the Stone Age) and I’m going through a similar dilemma myself. However, I’m 25, am a truly “amateur” historian who isn’t even sure what area of history I’d like to become some sort of expert in. However, I know would like to go the route of the PhD because I can’t trick myself into liking any of the jobs I’ve had enough to stay there for 20 more years, just having history as a serious hobby.

Being that I work full-time National City in Cleveland and am not independently wealthy, I’ve been looking at some of the online history programs. Norwich I can’t afford. AMU looks enticing based on what seem to be quality faculty and several required books that I’ve already read and know are good. I’ve just looked at Sam Houston (thanks to Chris L) and the costs there are in line with AMU, and this program looks nice as well.

Two questions I hope some here can chime in (further) on:
1. Do doctoral programs have any resistance to students with online degrees? Or has that stigma completely been overcome?

2. Those of you who are familiar with AMU and Sam Houston State, is there anything else you can tell me about your experiences there? I’d love to have close relationships with my professors, but I just can’t afford to go full, or even part time with my other commitments. I need to do this from home.

I’d appreciate any emails with your thoughts: chrisserger@yahoo.com

Thanks.

Interesting debate. I’m in the middle of my first graduate class in Military History at AMU and I have to say that I’m enjoying it a great deal. Let me ask those of you who teach history at the graduate level how graduate history seminars are organized. Do you lecture a great deal or are the students required to read A LOT and discuss together what they’re reading? If it is the latter, then it’s very similar to AMU’s format. The reading list is outstanding and the discussion of very high quality. Most students are or have been active military and so the perspectives they bring add depth and relevance. All are bright and articulate men and women – the majority officers – and all areas of service are represented.

Interaction with the professor comes from weekly lecture notes and comments on graded papers. I find both of high quality. And he is available for discussion fairly routinely. His credentials are of the highest quality (PhD Duke, Fulbright Scholar, published, holds very high MH position for the Army, on and on).

Would it be helpful to attend live lectures and sit in a room to discuss our reading? I suppose but since we’re discussing asynchronously, it allows for more thoughtful dialogue. And the variety of discussions we can have going all at once makes the experience better in many ways than a live discussion. We currently have 25 plus discussion threads going along with dialogue on everyone’s assigned questions. If you haven’t tried it, you should!

When will Ohio State University open up an online Military History MA program? I would suggest that history may be one of the best subjects to study in an online format. Some of us would like to go on to get a PhD in History and don’t plan to teach full time. And the only way we can do it with our schedules is “online.” I enjoy my position in the corporate world but actually find the rigor and discipline of graduate coursework quite fulfilling. Military History teaches many lessons pertinent to the skills needed in my management position. Believe it or not, reading Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, Jomini and Moltke has been very enlightening and relevant.

So professor G., give some serious thought to an online Military History degree program at OSU – MA and PhD – for the rest of us who have set a personal goal to obtain a PhD but can’t attend the brick and mortar school (even though I am a Buckeye to the core). Like many people, I would really love to get a PhD from a top flight university but don’t want to drop out of corporate America to do it and don’t have a top program in the part of the country I live in. I am quite sure that there are folks in the military with the same perspective. You might find that it opens all kinds of doors for program expansion and thus the PhDs you graduate who want to teach, will have more job opportunities. I work for a Fortune 500 company who is willing to reimburse my tuition for the program which says a lot. It is the only area they will pay for outside of business.

I hope this was helpful for the other person on the board inquiring about AMU.

Rene

Some very interesting reading. I have been looking into an online certificate in military history and haven’t had much luck with the exception of AMU which seems to have a good program. Norwich seems very pricing and it would be difficult to justify the expense for my own validation. Having said that, I am very interested in learning more in military history. Does anyone have any experience with other programs that are a little more cost effective?

Cheers,
Mike

Eric,

As someone familiar with both your work, and who is 2/3 finished with the Norwich MMH program, I think I can offer some insight. I would tend to agree that unless you are interested in expanding your areas of interest, the program may not be for you. It covers a HUGE amount of ground very quickly, and the 15-20 hour per week meausre only works if someone is satisfied with merely passing and not excelling.

On the other hand, the experience has taught me a great deal about history being more than a collection of facts and figures. Norwich challenges you to stop merely memorizing details and instead analyze their meaning. This has been helpful for me in my career.

Sorry to have joined thiss discussion so late. I have been taking courses for the MA Degree in Military History at AMU and have accumulated 15 credits. Overall my experience has been a good one. All of my porfessors have their PhD’s from prestigeous universities and have been published. The reading lists for each course are in line or even superior to ones that i have seen at brick and mortar schools. Norwich is just too damn pricey and frankly I am not sure that the quality is so superior to that of AMU to make the extra cost worthwhile. I do however like Norwich’s periodic on site seminar concept as It does engender a connection and interaction with the school, its professors and fellow students. that is missing at AMU.

As to your quandry about getting a History MA degree I say go for it. Even if you never use it you will not regret that you went through the process and got . Education is not ever a waste of time if you are doing it to prove something to yourself and becuase you love to learn.

Anyway like you I have been a non-credentialed for years and had title qualm, but finnaly decided to bill my self as a military historian. Whether or not academe or anyone else accepts that is their problem.

Good thing you didn’t go to Norwich for Military History. From what I hear the professors are “lowest bidder” profs and the course material is all theory and very little actually military history.

I’m considering U of I-Urbana for an MA in Military History. Military History degrees seem to be drying up as many of the older military history teachers are retiring.

Is there a definitive list off universities offering M.A. programs with specialization in Military History? Both Thesis and non-thesis.

A very good discussion (which I guess means that it confirmed what I was thinking!). The only issue I have is that “I know what I know” and whenever I talk on my topics I get positive feedback, and from strangers who don’t feel they have to compliment me. I would love to teach a course at a Community College but how do I certify/prove what I know? Like many others on this board I have advance degrees (2), but in engineering.

Thank you so much for your summation. I have a similar academic background as you describe yours, and at this point it’ all about time and money. So your write-up is much appreciated as I ponder.

Thanks again,

Lisa

To those who attended the three or four online institutions mentioned above..have you continued onward to a PhD and was your online program accepted by the succeeding university?

Or, Have you found work as an adjunct professor in your area? Is your degree considered valid by local/state institutions?

I have spoken to several community colleges in my area about teaching with a degree earned online. In general they said if the school where you earn your degree is reginally accredited.

University of Nebraska/Kearney also has an online MA in History now. Some schools had suggested I do not need any undergrad courses in history for the grad program, but I am somewhat nervous about that.

Kelly, thanks for the great comment on APSU’s program. I am considering the APSU mil history online as well. My only rub is that I am active duty US Navy, and thus would have detachments that can often interfere. Do you, or anyone else out there, have information on the time commitments or deadlines for classes and participation for those completing the program online? Any gouge/info would be great!

Thanks so much

I’m coming to this topic a little late, I stumbled across the conversation as I was looking for some information on another topic, and I thought I might offer some insight. I am a graduate of VMI, with a B.A. in History, and I am completing an M.A. in Military History through Norwich University right now.
Having experience in both an extremely formal college setting, as well as the online only setting offered by Norwich, I have to say that NU offers just as comprehensive an educational opportunity as any “live” classroom, but it is entirely dependent on the learning style of the student involved. If a student is disciplined, self-motivating, and capable of conducting independent research, the “survey courses” that were mentioned in this article offer a great vehicle for educational improvement. The cons to this system are obvious, if this isn’t the learning environment that works for you then you are destined to fail. That is pretty true for academics in general. If you are a person capable of learning in a distance environment, then there are several pros.
1. You can work the program on your own schedule. I started my MMH while I was still on active duty in the Army, and I have taken multiple breaks for deployments, ETS, and for starting my civilian career. The survey structure of the courses allows you to come back in and pick up from your last course, and NU has committed to this by ensuring that courses and course requirements aren’t constantly changing. Anyone that has attended any college in the US in the last fifteen years will know what I’m talking about.
2. The whole program is set up to work online. This includes faculties, libraries, and services. I have had professors from all across the US, and even one in Canada. Many of them are using the MMH program as a second income, to supplement their positions at other institutions, which allows for a broad base of experience to draw from rather than the comparatively small departments at most physical campuses. The NU library has created a massive database of Ebooks, neatly organized into categories for each online Masters program, and provides complete access to WorldCAT, JSTOR, and other research databases through its online access point. The Bursar and Financial Aid offices are set up to deal with 100% distance learning students, as well as helping to organize tuition, GI benefits, etc. online, which is a far cry from the old-school lines I used to stand in for semester registration at VMI.
3. NU has a full time on-site staff at Norwich dedicated just to administrating the needs of the online campus. The formal department of history at NU also serves as oversight to the program, ensuring that students and instructors are meeting their obligations to one another.
4. The NU online programs are tailored toward military students, whether active duty, reserve/guard, or veterans. This isn’t to say that it isn’t just as good for the average student, but it has been especially built to work around all of the potential issues that military personnel can encounter, from deployments to unexpected relocation. It also helps that many of the faculty, both of the distance learning and the regular campus, have military experience themselves. To date, 3 out of 4 of my instructors have served.
5. The student to instructor ratio is fantastic. At VMI I had one class in four years where there was a ratio greater than 20 to 1, and that was a 100 level ROTC class. Classes there are on average 12 to 1 or less, a fact that VMI takes pride in. I have not been in a class at NU yet that had greater than an 8 to 1 ratio, and those classes are taught 100% by a PhD, not a graduate student. I consider that to be a benchmark of quality in education more than anything else.

I know that this post is pretty late to the game, and that things might have changed greatly since the last time anyone looked at the online program NU offers. I started my coursework in 2010, and I’m just finishing it now. In that time I really haven’t seen a considerable change other than a transition to a newer, and better academic portal. I hope that this helps someone else make an informed decision in the future.