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Comments on: An Interesting Connection…. https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432 Bringing obscurity into focus Thu, 11 Apr 2019 15:39:26 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.0.22 By: TimeBender https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432&cpage=1#comment-44350 Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:10:21 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432#comment-44350 [about a teacher the at Rittenhouse Academy, Washington, DC, which Clarence (born 1856) attended until 1869]
Washington Post (DC) 14 May 1905, p 11 col 5
GOT EVEN FOR WHIPPING
Clarence Norment Pays Off Old Scores with School Master.
Clarence [F.] Norment, president of the Central National Bank, recently told how he got even with a man who was his teacher in the days of his youth, and used to wield the birch with frequency and vigor. Mr. Norment says that as a boy he hated this man fiercely, and vowed that if he ever reached the years of manhood he would lick him within an inch of his life.
Not long ago a prominent lawyer entered the bank and introduced to Mr. Norment a man from the upper part of Maryland, who wanted a favor. Mr. Norment immediately recognized the old master.
Are you Mr. Blank, who taught school at such a place? You are? Well, do you remember how you beat me for no reason at all, just because you were bigger; how you kept me in when I wanted to play ball; how you wrote notes to my father and got me more lickings? I bet you remember every bit. Well, I made a vow that if I ever met you when I got to be a man I’d whip you, if I had to go to jail for a month. Now get ready.”
Mr. Norment got up in a threatening attitude, and the former teacher was livid with fear, and the lawyer speechless with astonishment.
Then Mr. Norment and they all understood, but the fright Mr. Norment gave the dominie made up for all his grievances.

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By: Bill Bergen https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432&cpage=1#comment-12836 Sun, 24 Jun 2007 18:59:10 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432#comment-12836 Eric,

Just wanted you to know I tripped across a bit of Dahlgren original material here at the UVA library:

http://ead.lib.virginia.edu/vivaead/published/uva-sc/viu03799.xml.frame

If you have not already checked it out, I can the next time I am there (and I expect to make it in about a week).

Bill

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By: Rantings of a Civil War Historian » Dahlgren and Herold, Part Two https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432&cpage=1#comment-10645 Mon, 19 Mar 2007 00:37:27 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432#comment-10645 […] I’ve continued to explore the connection between Ulric Dahlgren and Davey Herold, which I first mentioned in this blog on February 27. My research indicates that it’s quite probable that Herold and Dahlgren knew each other, but it’s now clear that they didn’t attend Rittenhouse Academy at the same time; they missed each other by a couple of months. […]

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By: Steve Meserve https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432&cpage=1#comment-10331 Fri, 02 Mar 2007 19:12:38 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432#comment-10331 When you know a little more history, you will understand that the History Cahnnel likes sensasionalism, whether it has any basis in fact or not. Their productions are prone to present a possibility as a proven fact. It’s a shame you weren’t reading forum posts a couple of months ago when the “Sultana” question came up. There is conclusive evidence that the explosion definitely was NOT caused by sabotage, but by faulty repairs on a boiler.

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By: Valerie Protopapas https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432&cpage=1#comment-10326 Fri, 02 Mar 2007 15:38:54 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432#comment-10326 Frankly, the sinking of the Sultana was very well covered in a History Channel program which definitely linked it to former acts of sabotage carried out by various Confederate agents on federal vessels plying the rivers. The device that was thought to have been used was a bomb made to look like a piece of coal that was secreted in the coal deliveries to the vessels and would ignite, blowing the boilers when shoveled into the ships furnace. The Sultana exploded shortly after such a delivery was made. The program even provided an example of this device for viewing – and very clever it was for it was virtually indistinguishable from an ordinary lump of coal. And, of course, as it would simply be one of thousands of such ‘lumps’ the chances of it being found were virtually nil.

Secondly, I never made any such connection between Mosby and Booth – but OTHERS have. The book Come Retribution certainly makes that connection. A very long and detailed article in a Civil War magazine plainly shows Mosby ‘in the loop’ according to the authors. I had an interest in the matter and attempted to discern from as many ‘experts’ as possible just how ‘real’ that link might have been. On the whole, most – including Michael Kauffman as noted – did not believe that Mosby was involved. Others thought that he WAS involved certainly in the Harney matter which was an attempt (if one believes it) to blow up the White House with Lincoln and his entire Cabinet. Among those who certainly hold that view is Ed Steers (Blood on the Moon) and Jane Singer who authored a well documented book (which was also the subject of a program on the History Channel) about certain Confederate covert (terrorist) operations.

Sorry, Mr. M. I’m afraid that you cannot simply dismiss my points because I made them this time.

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By: Steve Meserve https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432&cpage=1#comment-10320 Fri, 02 Mar 2007 12:41:24 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432#comment-10320 Are you seriously suggesting the sinking of the “Sultana” was an act of Confederate sabotage? That is even more hare-brained than the idea John Wilkes Booth and John Mosby ever even considered working together.

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By: Valerie Protopapas https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432&cpage=1#comment-10310 Fri, 02 Mar 2007 03:12:03 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432#comment-10310 I have read both men’s books and they are excellent. However, Lincoln as well as Stanton, Baker and others knew of various ‘assassination plots’ long before the war was over. To say that the war was over and that was it, just isn’t sensible. Given the fact that most Southerners applauded Lincoln’s death (albeit quietly to avoid dying themselves), I would say that Lincoln was hardly ‘safe’ once Lee had surrendered. The war really WASN’T over. Davis and his government were on the loose, Johnston had not yet surrendered, Mosby was lurking in Northern Virginia as dangerous as ever, covert operatives were still abroad bent on killing as many Yankees as they could while the opportunity was still extant (remember the Sultana!), so the war was hardly over.

Lincoln had refused guards although certainly when it was thought in Washington that Mosby might attempt to kidnap the President from the Old Soldier’s Home, guards not only ‘appeared’, but slept in the President’s doorway according to some sources.

As for my comment about Booth being an actor: I meant that he certainly was not as dangerous as would have been the case had he been a hardened combatant. All cornered men are dangerous, but a man who was dangerous BEFORE being cornered becomes all the MORE dangerous once he is. I cannot imagine that Booth would have declined the opportunity to play the greatest role of his life at a trial rather than dying in a dirty farm yard. If they were talking to him, the ‘danger’ of his shooting them seems to have been greatly reduced. So, while everyone is talking and no one is shooting, Corbett settles the matter through a crack in the barn wall. Wasn’t anyone watching this nutcase? Or, perhaps, they didn’t even know he was there? That’s not the way to ‘bring ’em back alive’, folks – as can clearly be shown by the result obtained.

I believe (but I cannot swear) that Boston Corbett was a known figure in the Capitol which meant that his mental condition was ALSO known. As noted, if everyone was permitted to ‘go along’ on the manhunt for Booth, one can hardly consider this a ‘well run’ tactical operation. If they wanted Booth alive, it seems reasonable that they would have chosen the very best trained men to pursue and capture him. Weren’t there any soldiers in Washington that could have been called upon for this purpose?

I do not speak of conspiracies, only stupidity. The kidnap/assassination plots were known by Lincoln and Stanton among others. Booth’s allegiances were also known and his presence in the area if not known absolutely by Baker and others certainly should have been a concern. Booth was a well known figure. He had visited Ford’s Theater before the assassination so he made no secret of his presence in Washington.

On the other hand, the authorities seemed to know of Booth’s connection with Surratt because they went to Mary Surratt’s home before Lewis Paine got back there from his attempt to assassinate Seward. Why was no one keeping watch for Booth at Surratt’s house given his open threats – and I DO mean ‘open’; that is, voiced in the presence of witnesses not a party to the cabal.

If no one wishes to consider a conspiracy by the Union or the Confederacy (or some from both sides), fine. But then I posit that the only other conclusion has to be a stupidity so vast and so wide-spread as to be inexplicable.

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By: Steve Meserve https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432&cpage=1#comment-10309 Fri, 02 Mar 2007 00:48:31 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432#comment-10309 Lincoln never had guards, and only rarely had an escort when he traveled about the city. Even when warned specifically that there was a plot to take his life before he could be sworn in as president, he made the journey from Philadelphia to Washington accompanied by only two menhis friend War Hill Lamon and detective Allen Pinkerton. During the war, the White House was an open building that anyone could enter and request an audience with the president. Lincoln routinely walked from the White House to the War Department alone, with neither escort nor guard.
The simple fact is that Abraham Lincoln was the first American president assassinated. Prior to his death, no one took the threat of such an insane act seriously. There was, then, nothing out of the ordinary for Lincoln not to be accompanied by armed guards when he left home. It is certainly nothing on which you can base a conspiracy theory or for which you can accuse Stanton or anyone else of either incompetence or criminal negligence.

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By: Steve Meserve https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432&cpage=1#comment-10308 Fri, 02 Mar 2007 00:46:09 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432#comment-10308 s safety and could not get him to change his plans, then why not send the man requested as well as load the place up with guards???]]> >And if no guard were assigned, again WHY NOT? If Stanton was concerned for Lincoln’s safety and could not get him to change his plans, then why not send the man requested as well as load the place up with guards???

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By: Rob Wick https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432&cpage=1#comment-10307 Fri, 02 Mar 2007 00:39:49 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=432#comment-10307 Where to start, Valerie?

Those in charge of the manhunt had every intention of bringing Booth back alive if at all possible, so there was no need to say “Booth must be brought back alive at all costs.” I’m not really sure where you’re going with the issue of Booth being an actor and not a solider. At this point he was the suspected presidential assassin and was just as dangerous and desperate as any professional solider. And for the Garrett Farm Patrol, it wasn’t a question of fear of Booth. When Conger, Byron Baker and Edward P. Doherty were talking to Booth in the early morning hours of April 26, they were doing so in full view of Booth and Herold, who easily could have taken any number of shots at them at any time. With the lights they carried, Booth and Herold could see them clearly, but they had no sight of the two men. Indeed, Booth told Byron Baker that he was a brave man because Booth had several opportunities to shoot him. So the reason for shooting Booth had nothing to do with fear.

Why was Corbett there? Why was any of them there? When the call came for volunteers, any one could show up if they wanted to. Again, it’s not a question of competence. It is a question of we’ve got a good lead on this and can’t waste time with psychological interviews of each potential hunter to make sure he doesn’t take a shot at Booth before we’re ready. I think just about every man who served in the Union army during the Civil War would have ached to go on that manhunt, in order to bring Lincoln’s killer back in. I’m not sure where you’re getting your information on the way that Booth was hunted down. To be sure there were serious holes in the way people were looking, but from the very first day the government had a concentrated effort on to find Booth, but they were dealing with a lot of unknowns. First, they had no idea where he had gone, if he was traveling alone or if he had help from the Confederate underground. Also, they had no idea that Booth had broken his leg until they interviewed Dr. Samuel Mudd. And I will certainly admit that there were people on the same side fighting against each other, hampering the investigation, but Booth’s manhunt was not treated like he was simply a runaway slave.

I don’t know if you’ve ever studied the relationship between Lincoln and Stanton, but on several different occasions, Stanton did tell Lincoln to “take a hike” as you put it. Sometimes Lincoln let it stand, other times he insisted his directions be followed. No guards were assigned to Lincoln because Lincoln himself did not want them. No amount of persuasion would have stopped Lincoln from going to Ford’s Theater that evening. Oh, and he did ask Eckert himself, and Eckert, who knew that Stanton wanted Lincoln to stay away from the theater, said he couldn’t go. Plus, the war was, for all practical purposes, over. Given that no American president had ever been shot up to this point, who would have guessed that with the war over, the danger hadn’t passed? Maybe short sighted, but certainly not stupid.

If I may, I would suggest that you read either Mike Kauffman’s “American Brutus” or Ed Steer’s “Blood on the Moon” which I think might help in answering some of the points you’ve raised.

Best
Rob

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