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Comments on: What was Jeb Stuart doing on East Cavalry Field, July 3, 1863? https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045 Bringing obscurity into focus Thu, 11 Apr 2019 15:39:26 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.0.22 By: Michael Brumbach https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045&cpage=1#comment-58270 Sat, 26 Oct 2013 15:43:26 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045#comment-58270 I purchased a farm and farmhouse(built 1839) bordering East Cavlry field on Hanover Rd.(noth side) where it crosses Little’s Run. Spangler’s farm just east on the south side is reported to have been Custer’s headquarters. On battlefield maps my farmhouse is identified as belonging to an A.Little. I am interested in any info about the possible use of my farmhouse. The name in some accounts in this same scenario uses the Abrahanm Reevers farm as being involved. THANKS

Mike Brumbach

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By: Jon Wallace https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045&cpage=1#comment-45473 Tue, 27 Dec 2011 22:29:19 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045#comment-45473 Something you wrote above put the hook in me. It took me a minute to think on it. Stuart was in ambush formation to “ambush” Hancock’s retreating corps as it retreated from the Union center, Not to receive Gregg. Gregg was an unexpected target of opportunity, which Stuart engaged in an attempt to regain favor with Lee.
Stuart routinely deployed his small pieces in this way.

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By: Jon Wallace https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045&cpage=1#comment-45461 Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:18:21 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045#comment-45461 I think Stuarts “avenue of approach” to East Cavalry Battlefield might explain much. Personally, I think ECB is too deep in the Union rear to really allow Stuart to protect the flank. The location of ECB really makes for a seam between the right end of the CSA line and ECB that would be easily exploited. If Stuarts orders were to protect the right flank, he was doing a damned poor job of it. I think he was headed to a position whereby upon the breakthrough of the Union line and the subsequent collapse in echelon of the reserve, he could drive the Union troops and create more havoc. I think he was intercepted en route to this position. I think Lee was so confident about the success of this attack that he stationed Stuart so. Remember also that there was a second diversionary attack on the left, which ended up being as poorly timed as the actions on the right on the second day, which really added or subtracted nothing from Pickett’s effort in the middle. I dont think that we can fall back on Lee’s extraordinary detail in the writing of operation orders as an indicator of intent in this instance, because Lee’s coordination and lack of interior lines of communication had been so poor thus far. Secondly I would imagine that Lee’s relationship with Stuart (although strained at this moment) was such that he could simply show Stuart the battle plan and trust Stuart to understand his intentions AND take care of the logistical details. Further speculating along these lines, perhaps Lee gave Stuart some latitude to react to the situation as he saw fit in what I would call an If/then order.

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By: Dennis https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045&cpage=1#comment-45378 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 10:33:47 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045#comment-45378 Keith wrote in part, “It always amazes me how often someone equates lack of evidence as proof of intent…”

I was looking for the words I wanted but you summed it up perfectly.

Regards,
Dennis

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By: Terry Walbert https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045&cpage=1#comment-45377 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 06:07:50 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045#comment-45377 Your point about the condition of Stuart’s men after their arrival on July 2 is the most important consideration. Sometimes historians forget that battles are not chess boards nor solders chess pieces.

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By: Keith Toney https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045&cpage=1#comment-45375 Sat, 19 Nov 2011 14:58:18 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045#comment-45375 Eric, thought I would reply here instead of FB since many on my FB list would have no idea what’s being discussed. As they used to say on one of those 80’s game shows, good answer Eric, good answer! Yeah, i saw that thread yesterday; I suppose that’s proof I’m not quite ready to be back on the field since I rolled my eyes, said ahhh geez, not again, and didn’t reply. It always amazes me how often someone equates lack of evidence as proof of intent without stopping to realize how fluid any battlefield action is, whether its G’burg in 1863 or Iraq in 2003. Now if someone could convince Bill Hewitt applying early 21st century military strike force doctrine to a 19th century battle doesn’t work…hey, Lee and Stuart were excellent commanders, but they weren’t THAT far sighted…
Keith

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By: Bob Hamann https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045&cpage=1#comment-45374 Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:46:58 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045#comment-45374 The biggest problem with Carhart’s theory is that it doesn’t pass the smell test.

1. Union artillery slaughtered the Confederate batteries om the crest near Rummel’s barn.

2. Same as above- substitute Brenner’s Hill.

Stuart had to have known his men would be slaughtered in the type of attack Carhart insisted was planned and executed.

3. Stuart’s own AG- a man he trusted to the highest degree, Henry McClellan himself said that everything was delayed on the 3 rd because of the lack of ammo- he went into DETAIL on how Stuart had to leave behind thousands of men for lack of ammo, yet never once hints that it would cripple a pending attack- be fatal to Stuart’s plan to work with the attack on the Federal Center, or even describe men that acted like they were about to follow Carhart’s plan.

4. Look at Lee- look at how detailed the man is when writing reports- YET he never once mentions what Carhart feeds people- the same is true for Stuart. Unless I am wrong- when Stuart set out for East Cav Field the battle plan for the day did not include the huge desperation attack on the Union Center!

What did Stuart say??????????

” Had the enemy’s main body been dislodged, as was confidently hoped and expected, I was in precisely the right position to discover it and improve the opportunity. I watched keenly and anxiously the indications in his rear for that purpose ”

WELL- DUH- THAT IS WHAT CAV IS SUPPOSED TO DO! Stuart could have been successful in his attack at the East Cavalry Field and still not been near the rear of AOP, That rear went all the way back along the Baltimore Pike to Westminster. As I see the battle- with my humble education and knowledge- it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for Stuart to drive up the Baltimore Pike- hence Carhart is clueless.

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By: Bob Hamann https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045&cpage=1#comment-45373 Sat, 19 Nov 2011 00:45:48 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045#comment-45373 Here is more food for thought Eric- maybe- McPherson wrote the intro for Carhart- many out there think he is the greatest CW writer of all time, so they link his praise to Carhart’s line about Lee and Stuart- you might disagree- I respect that, but many I’ve given you food for thought there with that linkage as intro’s like he wrote are basically endorsements.

” At about noon Stuart, with Jenkins’ and Chambliss’ brigades, moved out on the York turnpike, to take position on the left of the Confederate line of battle. Hampton and Fitz Lee were directed to follow. Breathed and McGregor had not been able to obtain ammunition, and were left behind, with orders to follow as soon as their chests were filled.”

-McClellan

So Eric- THAT is the great Carhill plam????

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By: J. David Petruzzi https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045&cpage=1#comment-45371 Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:47:34 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3045#comment-45371 Well said. As Lee wrote in his OR, Stuart “effectually protected our flank.” Period. End of sentence. Anything else is pure speculation.

As to the other commentators sources, of course you’ll find a plethora of post-battle stuff written by (especially) Union cavalry veterans that Stuart was operating in concert with Pickett’s Charge. It was much more glorious for Gregg’s and Custer’s veterans to claim that they had turned back part of the great “tide” of the attack of July 3. But unless any Union veteran was standing with Lee and Stuart when the former gave any supposed concert attack orders to the latter, you can completely discount anything any Federal every said or wrote as obvious dramatic, romantic embellishment about Stuart’s true intentions.

There is not a single, solitary contemporary shred of any evidence from any Confederate that said that at the time Stuart was operating under ANY orders other than protecting that flank. As you documented, Stuart watched the fighting along Brinkerhoff’s Ridge on July 2, saw Gregg’s troopers there, and the next day decided to kick up some dust with him. No more, no less. He tried to draw out Gregg by firing the three cannon shots in his direction, then got an answer from one of Pennington’s guns. If Stuart intended to secretly get on the Union right flank and make some sort of surprise attack should Pickett’s Charge break through, announcing your presence by firing three artillery rounds is a damn stupid way to keep it all secret, ain’t it?

Some folks seem to make a cottage industry about the “Stuart to the Rear” nonsense, but hopefully our writings and those others who have studied this episode in great detail will go some distance in putting the silliness to rest.

J.D. Petruzzi

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