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Comments on: Untying the Gordian Knot https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416 Bringing obscurity into focus Thu, 11 Apr 2019 15:39:26 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.0.22 By: Understanding Battles: Multiple Sources « We're not lost, Sergeant, We're in … France https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416&cpage=1#comment-44344 Sun, 13 Mar 2011 21:49:44 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416#comment-44344 […] blogs, you get to see a lot of evaluations of sources. Recently, Eric wrote about the four cannons firing at Brinkerhoff’s Ridge at the start of Stuart’s visit to the East Cavalry Field that provides a good example of this […]

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By: The General https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416&cpage=1#comment-44337 Tue, 08 Mar 2011 20:45:19 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416#comment-44337 Ed,

I appreciate that.

However, the problem with that analysis is that Hampton came up after Chambliss and Witcher, and Green’s men, not being horse artillery, came up even later.

I don’t think that they had arrived yet when these shots were fired.

Eric

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By: Ed Rowe https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416&cpage=1#comment-44336 Tue, 08 Mar 2011 20:24:17 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416#comment-44336 After reading the reports written by Capt. A. C. Green of the Louisiana Guard Artillery (ref. OR Series 1, Vol. 27, Ch. 39, Pt. 2, p. 497) on 8 Jul 1863 and Brig. Gen. Wade Hampton (ref. OR Series 1, Vol. 27, Ch. 39, Pt. 2, p. 724) on 13 Aug 1863, I believe it was Green’s two 10-pounder Parrott guns that fired the first shots on 3 July at the East Cavalry Battlefield. He had accompanied Hampton’s Brigade there after supporting Hampton the night before near Hunterstown.

Ed

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By: belfoured https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416&cpage=1#comment-44335 Mon, 07 Mar 2011 15:11:28 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416#comment-44335 Just a final point on “signal shots”. When you look at how many Union guns were on the field in intervening terrain and you account for the additional fact that Gettysburg, like any battlefield, had its own acoustical oddities, use of that as a signalling system seems borderline idiotic. But then the same could be said, I suppose, about the concept of the charge in the first place. While McClellan’s memoirs seem to state the far more plausible purpose as his own speculation, this makes it seem highly likely that at least he and Pennington could have communicated about this. Perhaps he altered it to a definite statement of Stuart’s purpose or perhaps Pennington heard it that way. Even if we had a transcript of what McClellan said, we’d still have doubt whether he knew Stuart’s purpose. But when you add the circumstances and common sense together, it seems good enough to me.

John Foskett

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By: William Richardson https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416&cpage=1#comment-44334 Mon, 07 Mar 2011 01:51:56 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416#comment-44334 ” Therefore, as J. D. pointed out, and with which I agree, it makes sense that it would have been Griffin’s battery that drew the return fire, thereby causing the reported casualties. Many thanks to J. D. for pointing that out to me. ”

” After reading this post, a friend called to tell me why we’re wrong about Griffin, and after hearing what he said, I’m now leaning toward the Jackson position. My point is that unless I laid this out here, I wouldn’t have had that conversation. ”

So Eric is it Griffin’s or Jackson’s ”

Respectfully,

William Richardson

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By: William Richardson https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416&cpage=1#comment-44333 Mon, 07 Mar 2011 00:09:45 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416#comment-44333 ” McClellan’s memoirs come very close to saying what Pennington reported, although they stop just short. That’s good enough for me. ”

There isn’t anything wrong with one assuming or speculating. Close is enough I assume. Even McClellan speculated as to why Stuart fired the shots.

“The first law for the historian is that he shall never dare utter an untruth. The second is that he shall suppress nothing that is true. Moreover, there shall be no suspicion of partiality in his writing, or of malice.”

Respectfully,

William Richardson

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By: The General https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416&cpage=1#comment-44332 Sun, 06 Mar 2011 22:03:27 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416#comment-44332 McClellan’s memoirs come very close to saying what Pennington reported, although they stop just short. That’s good enough for me.

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By: William Richardson https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416&cpage=1#comment-44331 Sun, 06 Mar 2011 20:22:48 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416#comment-44331 I too find the “signal shots” too much to accept. However, I still can’t accept Pennington’s tale when McClellan makes no mention of what Pennington states. Did Pennington make this claim after the death of McClellan ?

McClellan did state that in his opinion the shots were either ” . I have been somewhat perplexed to account for Stuart’s conduct in firing these shots; but I suppose that they may have been a prearranged signal by which he was to notify General Lee that he had gained a favorable position; or, finding that none of the enemy were within sight, he may have desired to satisfy himself whether the Federal cavalry was in his immediate vicinity before leaving the strong position he then held; and receiving no immediate reply to this fire, he sent for Hampton and Fitz Lee, to arrange with them for an advance and an attack upon the enemy’s rear. ”

Signal shots were used often during the Civil War, but I agree using “signal shots” here at that time would be borderline ridiculous.

Why would Pennington fabricate this ? Better question….Why would McClellan make no mention of this ? Pennington has also made the statement that McClellan told him ” That his ( Pennington ) first shot hit the muzzle of one of the cannons. ” This too was never made mention of by McClellan…Why ? In my opinion I don’t think either statement was made by McClellan. I have as of yet found no other source for either statement being made.

Respectfully,

William Richardson

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By: belfoured https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416&cpage=1#comment-44330 Sun, 06 Mar 2011 16:51:08 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416#comment-44330 Given that Pennington commanded Battery M of the 2d U.S. and faced McClellan on July 3, it’s highly plausible that they would have had post-war contact and discussed this issue. The question is why Pennington would fabricate this. As to the larger point, it’s a whole lot more reliable than Carhart’s totally unsubstantiated speculation. I, for one, have always tried to fathom why on earth Lee would rely on the firing and recognition of “signal guns” from that direction to commence the battle’s decisive action. It’s frankly borderline ridiculous, in my humble opinion.

John Foskett

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By: William Richardson https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416&cpage=1#comment-44329 Sun, 06 Mar 2011 07:45:04 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2416#comment-44329 ” One of the men interviewed was Alexander C. M. Pennington, whose battery did superb work on East Cavalry Field. Pennington related that Stuart’s adjutant, Maj. Henry B. McClellan, told him that Stuart knew there was Federal cavalry out there, but was not sure where, and realized that firing the shots would draw a response, thereby enabling Stuart to pin down Gregg’s precise location. ”

The problem with this is you are going on one source..Pennington said that McClellan Said… Do you have a source from McClellan states that he told Pennington this ?

Respectfully,

William Richardson

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