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Comments on: Hmmmm…. https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119 Bringing obscurity into focus Thu, 11 Apr 2019 15:39:26 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.0.22 By: Mike Maude https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119&cpage=1#comment-38824 Mon, 28 Jun 2010 17:23:27 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119#comment-38824 This thread inspired me to pull PoB off the shelf for another read–and what struck me really quick was a reference to another message Jeb sent on the 25th about the northward movement of II Corps after he shelled the column at Bucktown. Again, the message got to the War Dep’t and was filed but apparently never got to Lee. So the message on the 27th was not his only attempt to pass timely intelligence to Lee and Richmond.

Really enjoying the re-read Eric & JD, and looking forward to the 3rd volume.

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By: Tom https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119&cpage=1#comment-38823 Mon, 28 Jun 2010 16:39:50 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119#comment-38823 I wonder what General Sam Cooper’s relationship was like with General JEB Stuart? Was it a good working one or did he not like Stuart? was Cooper just sleeping on the job?

Tom

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By: John Foskett https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119&cpage=1#comment-38817 Sun, 27 Jun 2010 20:40:45 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119#comment-38817 I’m still trying to figure out what Lee would have learned from Stuart that was better and more current than what he already knew/shuld have known. The Yankess had cavalry, as well, and that cavalry had become a much more effective force during Spring, 1863 (as the guy who runs this blog has shown in one of his many worthwhile books). Stuart’s only real option to stay “more closely attached to Lee”, it seems to me, would have been to keep west of the Army of the Potomac as it moved north. If the Yanks reacted to that with screens, he would have been furnishing reports about federal cavalry, and still would presumably have been involved in clashes with them. The function you suggest would likely only have been performed better if Stuart had actually been retained by Lee. Stuart could then have been at least probing south of the Chambersburg/Carlisle area. Once he was ordered to split off, the consequence seems fairly inevitable. Your point about Lee’s behavior is accurate, I think. But I don’t agree that the “A Team” was needed to perform basic reconnaissance and messaging – especially with all of the other information Lee had.

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By: Jeff Mancini https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119&cpage=1#comment-38809 Sat, 26 Jun 2010 17:54:29 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119#comment-38809 Lee had Jones’s,Robertson’s and Jenkins’ Cavalry available. It is documented that this was not the creme de la creme of the Rebel Cavalry force. Stuart had the “A” team on the march since Brandy Station and was more concerned with his exploits northward as the fertile grounds of Pennsylvania, I believe, seduced him into gathering a huge wagon train of forage for his troops. I think he lost focus and a grasp of his task. Furthermore it does not help that Robert E. Lee is moving northward to ease the strain off the Commonwealth of Virginia yet the summer heat is affecting his patience and he seems to be moving with an indecisive caution northward. His intelligence is sketchy and dated. Stuart is not communicating often enough or clearly enough. Robertson’s Cavalry is too green and poorly led to be fighters, Jenkins is not a large brigade and Jones might not be the ideal brigadier to coordinate the effort with Lee. If anything Stuart should be more closely attached with Lee and let Jones, the renowned outpost commander, to execute the end run to Hanover and Carlisle. Robertson and Jenkins should be led up the rear guarding the gaps and prepared to be the counter punch.

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By: John Foskett https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119&cpage=1#comment-38808 Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:39:08 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119#comment-38808 I’ve always been baffled at the notion that Lee was “surprised” when Hill made contact with Buford’s cavalry and then elements of the I Corps on July 1. Back to June 27 (briefly). If, as Marshall claimed Stuart later told him, Stuart dispatched the intelligence to Lee via Ashby’s Gap, it’s not clear to me why that would not have gotten through. Given the relative positions on 6/27-28 (Lee apparently in the vicinity of Chambersburg, the Army of the Potomac moving generally N-NE, and Stuart S of the Army of the Potomac), Ashby’s Gap would seem to have been a reliable direction by which to get the ihformation to Lee. Lee was also a voracious reader of northern newspapers. Do we know that none of the newspapers he could have gotten his hands on (or, indeed, any other sources of information) reported anything during the 6/27-30 period regarding the Army of the Potomac heading north through Maryland? At some point, the roads were filled with thousands of troops and artillery moving at a hurried pace. In fact, wasn’t Lee aware of the command change from Hooker to Meade before July 1? Odd that he would know about that but not that Hooker’s/Meade’s army was on the move to deal with Lee’s widely-known invasion of Pennsylvania. As to how Stuart handled tactics during his operation, I think that’s a completely different question from the question whether he left Lee “bilnd”. As Eric and JD make clear, it wasn’t as if Lee didn’t retain a cavalry force after Stuart departed.

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By: Jeff Mancini https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119&cpage=1#comment-38807 Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:21:37 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119#comment-38807 Stuart not conveying his whereabouts and objectives clearly enough to make sure that Robert E. Lee and him are on the same page is the crux of the discussion. If they are on the same page then Stuart is not gallavanting, shelling and burning the Federal Cavalry barracks in Carlisle.A pointless exercise considering the scope, goal and objective of the operation. His overly ambitious route burned his troopers out. By the third day at Gettysburg at East Cavalry Field he commits some real amatuerish errors including the discharging of artillery in four directions.He literally telegraphed his wherabouts to Gregg. At this point his cavalry corps is exhausted. He fails to blast through the Federal rear and thus Pickett’s Charge gets no secondary help by virtue of a potential rear end thrust by southern horsemen. Stuart’s antics are filled with flashed of brilliance and yet his ability to be a team player in the critical invasion of the north is a stain on his record. Face it Stuart led by his heart and not his mind. A good example is his inability to reign in and utilze his best outpost commander Gen. William E. “Grumble” Jones. Stuart let the cantankerous Jones get under his skin because Jones would chide him for not utilizing him properly. The clash of ego’s led to Stuart courtmartialing Jones and sending him to another theatre of operations. Stuart liked his role, he relished his role but his ego let him down. Despite the odds Stuart still ranks as the de facto face of the Confederate mounted effort in the eastern theatre. But he was not infallible and he had a personality that could hinder the effort. Robert Driver’s book on the 1st Virginia Cavalry supports the troopers dislike for his zeal for pomp and circumstance and parading at the cost of rest for the men and horses. Spread the blame, many are at fault but Stuart doesn’t help his cause with his mule headed stances.

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By: J David Petruzzi https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119&cpage=1#comment-38805 Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:34:13 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119#comment-38805 Hi Ralph,

Well, we’ve never claimed that all the evidence is on Stuart’s side – hence the title of the book 🙂

We were (and are) just trying to make the case that Stuart did indeed try to forward intelligence on the AOP’s movement – contrary to the other extreme, which is what you always hear… that Stuart did absolutely nothing to notify Lee or anyone else. Consider this – if the note had indeed reached Lee (on or about June 29) would it have made any difference? Perhaps. It certainly would have reinforced what the spy Harrison was saying. The note may have caused Lee to take different and/or quicker action.

The end result certainly came about by a combination of factors – Stuart’s one and only missive that didn’t get to Lee is certainly one.

JD

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By: Ralph Hitchens https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119&cpage=1#comment-38803 Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:49:53 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119#comment-38803 Not sure you make your case here, or in the book for that matter.

“One of the myths that J. D. Petruzzi and I tried to dispel in our book […] is the criticism that Jeb Stuart failed to take steps to provide intelligence to Robert E. Lee during his ride to Gettysburg. That criticism is not well-founded, as Stuart did, indeed, forward significant intelligence to the Confederate authorities.”

OK, there was one dispatch from northern Virginia on June 27th, a full week before the armies collided far to the north of the Potomac River. Lee clearly felt let down by Stuart prior to the latter’s eventual appearance on the battlefield. Why were Hill’s troops surprised on July 1st — “Look at those black hats! That’s the Army of the Potomac!” (as I recall reading somewhere) If it’s a myth, I still need to be convinced.

Your book, by the way, was outstanding. I gave it the “full monte” on Amazon.

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By: John Foskett https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119&cpage=1#comment-38802 Thu, 24 Jun 2010 21:38:55 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119#comment-38802 Of course, after I posted I pulled Plenty of Blame off the shelf to refresh my recollection as to how the Jones reference was treated. I haven’t had the chance to look at any maps showing where Lee was at any time on June 27 in relation to where Stuart was or to where the various parts of the Army of the Potomac were. Understandably, it took at least 72 hours for the message to reach Richmond, and perhaps more depending on when Stuart dispatched it on June 27. One would think that the capture or killing of a courier bearing that kind of information would make the records somewhere, especially because it might also have shown the captors where Stuart was in relaion to the others. But who knows. The newspaper publication of this and similar intelligence during the War is endlessly fascinating in its own right.

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By: J David Petruzzi https://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119&cpage=1#comment-38799 Thu, 24 Jun 2010 19:17:57 +0000 http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=2119#comment-38799 Ken,

I agree. We’re all starting to use newspaper accounts much more these days (well, at least Eric and I are:) because they’re so much more easily accessible – online and on film. But I also wonder where the heck the original of that message is, if it exists? I’ve never seen mention of the original, and since it went to the War Dept, I’d bet my life it got burned up in one of the War Dept record trains when Richmond was evacuated near the end of the war. Jones, since he quoted it word-for-word except for the address to Gen. Cooper, must have had it in front of him as he wrote his diary entry. It probably stayed in the War Dept, and got toasted when the trains and records were burned.

JD

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